G.O.A.T. vs Pip - The Redux

Ahh yeah, the infamous Pippen-Jordan discussion that was sparked by our good friend SML. When you get Realist going about the Bulls, that passion bubbles to the surface:)

Gangsta D:

What sayeth Senor Realist about this ode to Pippen?

I should preface this post by reminding everyone that Jordan is one of, if not the, greatest basketball players of all time, and this is not suppose to diminish his accomplishments or achievements. It's suppose to be a reminder, if anything, that great players may be great in any setting, but to become the type of star that dominates the game like Jordan did, you have to have some help. Pippen was more than just a role player, damn it. He was one of the greatest talents we'll ever see in our lives, too. But he's destined to be underappreciated.

Da Realist:

I agree with most of his points. Pippen was a great all-around player and never gets his due. jordan's star shined so brilliantly that even someone of Pippen's caliber gets lost in it sometimes.

But where we differ is "Replace Jordan with a comparable SG at the time"... there IS NO comparable sg at that time or at any time. Let's not do the opposite -- diminish Jordan to enhance Pippen. There still are 2 different roles here. It's disrespectful to call Pippen a "second banana" but it's idiotic to ignore the fact that jordan did what he did as the primary focus of the entire league every single night.

As much as Pippen allowed jordan to be jordan -- check the numbers (this from a guy that hates citing statistics) -- jordan allowed pippen to be pippen. Look at the astronomical numbers Jordan posted pre-1990 on both ends of the floor and compare them to the relatively "pedestrian" numbers he posted from that point on.

And about the notion of Jordan only winning as a second banana if there was no pippen... go back and look at tape. you tell me if you think jordan would have kept being denied year after year as the alpha dog in the nba without Pippen. He pushed the world champs to 7 games in 90 with virtually no help from Pippen. Would he have won 6 without pip? NO, but he would have won at least a couple.

Every great superstar needs help to win titles. Look at those Celtics and Lakers teams that larry and magic had the pleasure of playing with. No one denies that Magic was the man for the lakers. Sure Kareem and James worthy were big time players on that team, but they were not MAGIC. Same with the celtics. Why does everyone talk about Bird and not Mchale? Because no matter how good Mchale was, he was not Larry Bird. Even when michael cooper made larry look ordinary, it was still larry's team. joe dumars even won a finals mvp, but is there any doubt whatsoever who was the man for the pistons?

Pippen should get more due. He was a great player and one of the greatest all around players the nba has ever seen. But he was not Michael Jordan. And there is no comparable player.

Waldini:

well said Realist...

Another thing to bring up about lack of credit is people tend to remember the incidents in '94 (when he refused to go back into the game) and '99 (when he ripped Barkley before camp opened). Plus post Bulls era, he didnt help any of the teams he was on, get over the hump, or show the leadership that folks expected. I think either was unfair to Pip as in his prime, he was phenomenal. A great defensive player and basically did everything that was asked of him.


SML's response from the comments:


SML:

Hey, nice response guys!

I admit the "comparable SG" was silly; you are right, there aren't/weren't any comparable SG.

...look at the astronomical numbers jordan posted pre-1990 on both ends of the floor and compare them to the relatively "pedestrian" numbers he posted from that point on.

In Jordan's last pre-Pippen season, he averaged 37.1 ppg; in Pippen's first season Jordan's "pedestrian" number drop to 35 ppg; every other stat - rpg, apg, bpg, spg - all improved with Pippen's addition. Even the season after that - Pip's 2nd - when Pippen became a starter, Jordan's average "dipped" to 32.5 ppg, but his apg went up to a career high 8.0, and his other stats were equally as impressive. Point being Jordan's numbers weren't hurt or effected much by Pippen's presence. In fact, Jordan's FG% went up, and though he took less shots, he made about the same number of FGs. His FTA is what dipped the most, because he no longer had to post as much with Pippen down low.

he pushed the world champs to 7 games in 90 with virtually no help from pippen

True, but Pippen did even better without Jordan. He should have beat the Knicks in 94 without Jordan, and only a bad call in Game 5 sunk the Bulls against the team that always gave them the most problems (the Knicks). Believe me, that's coming from a Knicks fan... Pippen proved his value there.

It's an interesting debate, I admit that... thanks for your feedback.

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NBA Trade Value, Andrew Bynum, And Residual Bitterness

Waldini:

Untradeable?

One more thing: In my humble opinion, 2007 LeBron and 2007 Howard are more untradeable than anyone in the seven-year history of this "Trade Value" column, even surpassing (gulp) 2001 Shaq and 2003 Duncan. Yup, I think we're in pretty good shape with the National Basketball Association right now.

Gangsta D:

The thing with the NBA is, you just can't get equal value for stars and superstars. Who can you get back for Kobe or LeBron? One or two decent players and roster filler. You can only trade superstar for superstar.

Waldini:

Problem is that rarely happens. I am struggling to remember a true superstar for superstar trade in the past 20 yrs.

On a side note, you catch his commentary on Flash's probably state of mind :-)

Does anyone have a better cause for demanding a trade than Wade? He's playing hurt on a lottery team with an abrasive coach, a washed-up superstar, multiple head cases and exactly two teammates who care about defense; the potential savior of the season is a white point guard who looks like he just fell out of an Abercrombie catalog; they have no cap space until 2010; and he's playing every home game in a half-filled arena. Which star should be more depressed than Wade right now?

Gangsta D:

Yeah. It's funny how the Lakers appear to have pieces in place to be good, if not this year, then next year and beyond. While the Heat got old and bad real quick. Maybe Kupchak isn't the disastrous fuckhead we all thought he was. I'm more than willing to eat crow on that one, if it comes to fruition.

Da Realist:

That title still bugs you, huh? It doesn't matter how good the Lakers are or how bad the Heat are. Your boys will have to win one just to offset the damage of seeing Shaq win another after he left. You need one just to tie.

How long is Tim Duncan's brand new extension? Good luck.

Gangsta D:

Actually, seeing the Heat in the lottery will even it up for me. The Florida Marlins bought two titles in six years. It happens. Bynum will be a 20-10 guy next year. If he can dominate in the next 4-5 years, coinciding with the end of Kobe's prime, the Lakers will definitely challenge. If he can't, then they won't.

Waldini:

2 yrs ago, the majority were on the Shaq was done wrong train. Now they've hopped on the Shaq is lazy and done train. Flash will be out of Miami when his contract is up Ditto on those Bynum comments.

Da Realist:

"Andrew effin' Bynum? are you kidding me???" -- Kobe Bryant.

Gangsta D:

Who said Kobe was a good GM? Lol

The kid's averaging a double-double this year and is starting to play with a mean streak. Laugh all you want, but as long as he keeps working hard, he's gonna be a beast.

Waldini:

You are going to keep reminding us every time forever eh :-)? It's all good, we deserve it for constantly bringing up Pouty Pippen's migraine meltdown and refusing to enter a game.....

Da Realist:

Who knows how good (or not) Bynum will be. jordan was wrong about bill cartwright when he was traded for charles oakley.

I just like giving y'all shit.

Gangsta D:

Uh oh! You done done it now! Don't EVER bring up the migraine! lol

Read more!

The G.O.A.T. vs The Banana

Gangsta D:

What sayeth Senor Realist about this ode to Pippen?

I should preface this post by reminding everyone that Jordan is one of, if not the, greatest basketball players of all time, and this is not suppose to diminish his accomplishments or achievements. It's suppose to be a reminder, if anything, that great players may be great in any setting, but to become the type of star that dominates the game like Jordan did, you have to have some help. Pippen was more than just a role player, damn it. He was one of the greatest talents we'll ever see in our lives, too. But he's destined to be underappreciated.

Da Realist:

i agree with most of his points. pippen was a great all-around player and never gets his due. jordan's star shined so brilliantly that even someone of pippen's caliber gets lost in it sometimes.

but where we differ is "Replace Jordan with a comparable SG at the time"... there IS NO comparable sg at that time or at any time. let's not do the opposite -- diminish jordan to enhance pippen. there still are 2 different roles here. it's disrespectful to call pippen a "second banana" but it's idiotic to ignore the fact that jordan did what he did as the primary focus of the entire league every single night.

as much as pippen allowed jordan to be jordan -- check the numbers (this from a guy that hates citing statistics) -- jordan allowed pippen to be pippen. look at the astronomical numbers jordan posted pre-1990 on both ends of the floor and compare them to the relatively "pedestrian" numbers he posted from that point on.

and about the notion of jordan only winning as a second banana if there was no pippen... go back and look at tape. you tell me if you think jordan would have kept being denied year after year as the alpha dog in the nba without pippen. he pushed the world champs to 7 games in 90 with virtually no help from pippen. would he have won 6 without pip? NO, but he would have won at least a couple.

every great superstar needs help to win titles. look at those celtics and lakers teams that larry and magic had the pleasure of playing with. no one denies that magic was the man for the lakers. sure kareem and james worthy were big time players on that team, but they were not MAGIC. same with the celtics. why does everyone talk about bird and not mchale? because no matter how good mchale was, he was not larry bird. even when michael cooper made larry look ordinary, it was still larry's team. joe dumars even won a finals mvp, but is there any doubt whatsoever who was the man for the pistons?

pippen should get more due. he was a great player and one of the greatest all around players the nba has ever seen. but he was not michael jordan. and there is no comparable player.

Waldini:

well said Realist...

Another thing to bring up about lack of credit is people tend to remember the incidents in '94 (when he refused to go back into the game) and '99 (when he ripped Barkley before camp opened). Plus post Bulls era, he didnt help any of the teams he was on, get over the hump, or show the leadership that folks expected. I think either was unfair to Pip as in his prime, he was phenomenal. A great defensive player and basically did everything that was asked of him

Read more!

He Was Hurt! Shit!

Da Realist:

yep. it's that time again

They fell in five games to the Pistons in the 1988 Eastern Conference semifinals and didn’t fare any better against them the next two years in the conference finals. Detroit took them out in six games in 1989 and won Game 7 at home the following year as Pippen — then in his third season — sat out with a migraine.

Gangsta D:

Yeah, it's just not the same. Maybe they can deliver a classic series. God knows the east needs to do something to keep me awake.

The Scotty Migraine Episode. Not a good moment in Bulls history. Did you have questions about your boy then?

Da Realist:

oh brother... ok, let me ask you. have you had, or know someone that has had a migraine headache? my wife has had them and my wife's cousin and aunt have them occasionally. they can barely open their eyes in a lighted room, let alone play a game 7 at the auburn hills palace.

Gangsta D:

Don't you have to at least give it a try? You're the second best player on the team and it's Game 7. Don't you have to?

Da Realist:

diallo...has the man not done enough to prove to you he was a warrior? doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt?

and besides he DID try. i think he went 1-10 that day.

Gangsta D:

Somebody is getting testy:) Read more!

Jordan, Starks, and Pip's Nuts in Ewing's Mouth

John Boy:



His Airness



Da Realist:

ok. real talk. putting all biases aside, which is the most impressive dunk? and why? take everything into account.

you already know where I stand. ive been watching jordan a long time and even I forgot how explosive he was. But I can see someone liking starks too. what do
you think?

Gangsta D:

Thought about it. Can't pick.

Starks dunk meant more because it moved the Knicks into a 2-0 series lead. i have no idea when Jordan's dunk took place in the context of the game. Starks gets credit for going left hand. Jordan gets credit for the spin. Jordan dunked directly on Ewing. Both Grant and jordan were indirectly dunked on. That's honest, cause you know I have NO problem criticizing Jordan:)

Da Realist:

that's fair. jordan's dunk happened in 1991 -- game 3 of the first round when chicago was already up 2 game to none.

jordan's spin was nice, but it was the explosiveness that i like. he basically comes off a stand-still and jumps up and throws it down on 7-1 ewing.

starks dunk meant more. and jordan was involved. and it was left-handed. but he had a running start.

that's just my opinion.

Waldini:

I say Starks b/c it gave me more goosebumps when I watch it. From when he crossed up BJ to him coming down from the right but dunking with his left and the frenzy it sent the crowd and announcers into, classic.

On a side note, I take KJ's dunk over Dream in the 94 playoffs over both of the ones mentioned. Anytime a lil guy goes baseline like that over a premier defender/future HOF, you take notice. And throw in KJ flexing after the fact. It will always be one of my favorite dunks



And on another side note, Realist, what about Scottie's dunk over Patrick in the 94 playoffs. I love that one b/c I was pulling for the Bulls to win since everyone was on the Knicks bandwagon. The part I loved was him standing over Patrick for a few seconds with a stare that said, yea I got you tric. Love it.

Read more!

Adult Swim

Da Realist:

Do you want jason kidd? sounds like you could get him for pennies on the dollar. you add him to the starting lineup and scottie pippen (who wouldn't force you to have to sacrifice any players) to the bench, you guys are a TRUE darkhorse team.

don't laugh at pippen. you can't tell me he, even at age 40, couldn't slow down shawn marion or disrupt dirk nowitski for a few minutes a game while lamar odom gets a blow.

Gangsta D:

Dude why do you insist on forcing Pippen on us. you know you'll just be bitter and start complaining if he won a title in a Laker uniform. Oh yeah, it's entirely possible if we ever start playing like we give a damn.

As far as Kidd goes, i don't want to trade farmar, Luke, or Bynum. We'd have to part with at least two of those players. Could Kidd help us? Of course, but i don't know how much traction he has left on those knees. Plus he's due $59 million over the next 3 years. I don't think he makes or breaks us. We can do just as good or bad without him as with him. And a big N-EFFING-O to Pippen. The thermometer has popped out of his neck. It's a wrap...

Da Realist:

Bynum, yes. luke, farmer? please. you could trade them for a hill of beans. that offense is about the only offense luke walton is even remotely serviceable.

and you're right. no way do i want pip to be a laker, but i still think he'd be a good addition for your team.

Waldini:

especially now that space cadet did something even more stupid....http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/02/20/bc.nba.lakers/index.html

Gangsta D:

I still don't want Pippen. He's FORTY-ONE! It could only end tragically...

That's why you don't trade Luke. he flourishes in the offense and makes players better. I would much rather have Farmar than Smush at this point. i was in his corner early, but he just takes the WORST shots and goes outside of the triangle at the WORST time.

Da Realist:

Smush was alright last year. maybe the expectations is wearing him down this year. last year he was on 10-day contracts until the middle of the season. This year he's the starter.

Waldini:

Smush is miffed b/c he hasnt gotten a contract extension. He's making less than a mil and he wants more financial security. No excuse for him though to be playing like he is (well until recently that is).

I wouldnt give up Bynum, Farmar or Walton. Walton flourishes in the triangle whereas I dont see him making nearly the same impact in a more open, run up and down offense, say like Phx. I wouldnt give up on Bynum or Farmar especially since both are so young in their careers. I like Kidd but 3 yrs at 59 mil?? And on the wrong side of 33? And on a bum knee? He's done wonders this yr but damn you add him and the Lakers basically have voided their long term plans for the short term. Read more!

Hell To The Naw

Gangsta D:

Scottie Pippen is seriously considering a comeback and hopes to play for a contending team in this season's playoffs. He didn't mention the Bulls as a possible destination. Pippen, who turned 41 on Sept. 25, says he's in better condition and health than at any time in the last five years. -- Chicago Tribune

Turn off your phone phil.

Da Realist:

Who knows the triangle better? who can command respect out of the gate with the whole team (including kobe)? who can tell kobe things that phil wouldn't dare? who can instill a defensive mentality and focus immediately?

I not only think it's probable the lakers look into this, but it would be foolish for them not to. the man said he'd take a 10-day contract. who else you got? brian cook???

But, of course, if scottie cared at all about my feelings...

Gangsta D:

Would you like me to explain each individual part of the word "no?" Read more!